In brief
- Elon Musk said early DOGE audits uncovered $100 billion to $200 billion in annual “zombie payments.”
- He described internal resistance to the effort and said he would not reprise the role.
- The interview also covered immigration, AI, SpaceX, and his views on faith and daily work.
Elon Musk claimed that audits conducted under the Department of Government Efficiency identified what he described as “zombie payments” worth between $100 billion to $200 billion a year, marking the clearest accounting he has offered of the short-lived initiative he briefly led early in the Donald Trump administration.
Musk’s comments came in a podcast interview released Tuesday that quickly went viral and touched on everything from immigration and artificial intelligence to Mars colonization and metaphysics. The 53-minute episode, hosted by Katie Miller, a former Trump administration aide and wife of White House adviser Stephen Miller, was posted on X, where it drew more than one million views within hours.
The discussion moved through DOGE’s origins, Musk’s policy views, and his reflections on the period after leaving the post in May. Musk said the Department of Government Efficiency, known as DOGE, originated in informal discussions and was built around internet suggestions.
“Doge was a made-up name,” he said, explaining that someone online proposed “the Department of Government Efficiency, DOGE.” “So we just kind of made up a department.”
Musk said DOGE managed to make progress despite resistance to government cuts.
“We were somewhat successful. I mean, we stopped a lot of funding that really just made no sense,” he said. “That was entirely wasteful, where for example there was probably $100 billion maybe $200 billion dollars’ worth of zombie payments per year.”
Pressed on whether he would repeat the experience, Musk said he would not. “I think instead of doing DOGE, I would have basically worked on my companies,” he said, arguing that efforts to halt improper payments triggered significant pushback. He said attempts to stop politically connected funding streams made the work difficult to sustain.
The interview also ventured into immigration policy—a longtime priority for the Millers. Musk criticized what he described as insufficient controls on illegal immigration, arguing it burdens public resources and compounds labor-market pressures as automation accelerates. He linked the issue to broader economic anxiety, saying AI and robotics will displace many jobs and called for retraining programs and new forms of social support.
On technology, Musk reiterated warnings about AI’s potential to upend employment while championing the need for U.S. leadership.
“AI and robotics will be able to provide all the goods and services that anyone could possibly want,” he said. He added that many of his predictions were not reflections of his preferences: “People get confused about that. They think that what I predict will happen is what I want to happen.” He said AI had even shaped his sleep patterns: “I’ve had AI nightmares many days in a row.”
He pointed to ongoing work at xAI towards artificial general intelligence and humanoid robotics, adding that recent advances in machine learning supported his long-running interest in simulation theory.
“I have this theory about predicting the future: The most interesting outcome is the most likely,” he said. “If simulation theory is accurate, that makes sense, because if anyone is simulating a range of futures, they’ll stop the simulation when it gets boring. This is what we do in our reality.”
The aerospace manufacturing company SpaceX also featured prominently, with Musk highlighting developments at the company’s Starbase site in Texas and renewing his argument that human expansion beyond Earth is essential for long-term survival. He framed Mars colonization as both an engineering challenge and a civilizational imperative. In April, Musk said he aims to send Tesla Optimus robots to Mars in 2026.
Musk also commented on the assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk, which he condemned. He said the episode underscored growing security concerns around public appearances.
The conversation moved into personal details, including Musk describing a schedule of back-to-back meetings, adding he slept six hours a night. He also said he tried to eliminate irrational fears.
“I try not to have irrational fears. If I find an irrational fear, I squelch it,” he said. “I don’t think fear is the mind killer,” he added, quoting the classic line from Frank Herbert’s Dune.
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